Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Rise up at work. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra and today we are unlocking the work life you were meant to live. You're watching Now Media Television.
Welcome, everyone. Hi, I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra. On this show, we explore how real professionals grow, lead and create impact in today's fast changing workplace. Today we are talking about the future of work. That just sounds exciting to me. But, but we're not going to talk about it in terms of a prediction about technology. We're going to talk about what change actually requires from people, leaders and organizations. My guest is Dr. Sheryl Richards. She's the President and CEO of Catapult, a nationally recognized workforce strategist whose career has connected business, education, talent development and leadership for more than three decades. Cheryl welcome to Rise up at Work.
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Deepak. Excited to be here?
[00:00:51] Speaker A: It is when I was looking at your profile, Cheryl, I was really, I was looking forward to this conversation because I am a coach, worked with a lot of people. And I've actually come to the simple conclusion that our biggest asset, whether we like it or not, is actually with the humans. And we cannot sometimes put a value to those humans because the balance sheet doesn't allow for that. Right. That doesn't mean that the value is still not there.
What I wanted to talk to you about was get a grip and understanding of what exactly is it when we talk about preparing for the future work, what exactly are we talking about? What does it mean?
Do people misunderstand this term? Could you give me a definition?
[00:01:28] Speaker B: I think it's a great opening conversation to start with because when you're talking about the future of work, we're living the future today. We're living a future that none of us could have imagined.
I feel like it's a little bit of a, an esoteric question to talk about the future of work. Because tomorrow the future is going to look very different. And what I think we're really talking about is change management because nobody knows what the future holds.
And so when we talk about the future of work and you ask about leadership questions or things, it's really about change management.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: It is. And here's an interesting thing. You actually also avoided the AI word to be used anywhere, right? Because for you, that's just one of the.
The end is something else and the means is something else. I think right now everyone's conflating the two. What I wanted to understand for you then is that, okay, so whereas we go through this and you've been around the block for three decades. What capabilities are going to become important as this jobs, technology and customer expectations continue to change Now? Yes, you also have been long enough around to know, Cheryl, the answer is, Deepak, whatever's happened keeps happening. But I really wanted to get a perspective from you as to do you feel there's a subtle change this time in a post Covid world, in an AI infused world, are you seeing that's different? Do you see something that you would like to call out?
[00:02:48] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I like to think that we are on the precipice of our next revolution. Right. So you had the industrial revolution that you know, changed the way that people thought about the workplace with the technology revolution that started and now we're in this age of artificial intelligence where it's changing the landscape again.
But you know, when I reflect on your question about what are the capabilities and the competencies that are going to be necessary to continue, you know, I, for me I think about things like adaptability, resilience, learning, agility.
The learning agility being the ability to learn something new and to succeed in a first time situation and then judgment. I really feel like AI has put us at this intersection of human competencies.
Artificial intelligence that's doing a lot of the routine work, but you still need to have judgment in your workplace, whatever that work may be.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: I, I, I would agree with that. I come from a sales background and people ask me, will AI take my job debug? And my response is it depends if you let it take your job, I mean you need to ultimately realize in selling your judgment cannot be outsourced. You are paid to make a number and that number doesn't come by you. Just, how do you say this? Sending people a piece of paper. At some point you're going to talk to someone, going to negotiate with someone, you're going to put your face in front of someone. For me, that means that your role doesn't just go away. Will you change your role? Role structure may change, yes, Cheryl, I think you and I would agree on that. Michelle, let's keep, keep digging in here. And, and I just want to ask you a question. You said something when we started, right about and we spoke about human capital and you and I would both agree we call it human capital. But there's a massive disconnect, right? On one hand you have a profit and loss and balance sheet that actually never talks about the human element. Humans are always either. It's a cost, right? You're a cost. But in the balance sheet you look for it. You don't see it. You see buildings there, you see depreciation there. But we're just missing that human element when you have such a big mismatch in how numbers are represented. And now I go backwards, right? There's a business strategy, and the way that organization actually develop their people is very big difference. Right. I see a lot of things written on paper, and I don't see it enacted. Where do you think is the biggest disconnect that you have seen, and what would you suggest can be done to close that disconnect?
[00:05:13] Speaker B: You know, I think there's a.
There's a cartoon that I always think about when I start to talk about business strategy and developing people. You may be familiar with it. I can't remember who to attribute it to, but it's essentially a CEO talking to its cfo.
And the CFO says, you know, what if we invest in all of these people and develop them and they leave? And the CEO responds, what if we don't invest in them and they stay?
Right. And so that, to me, is kind of the essence of your question around your ROI for talent. Go ahead.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: Oh, here's a fun part. I'm nodding my head because I think I hit this meme 30 years ago, right. And the meme still carries value. And maybe that's what makes it such a powerful meme. Who is it? Attribute? I have no clue, except that I can say I got a Dilbertish vibe there. Right? You got a Dilbert vibe going on there. So, yeah, but, yeah, you're spot on. And here. But here's. Here's the question for you. I'd like to challenge you on that a bit. I get the meme, but why do I still feel despondent that we haven't closed it? You know, we know. It's like. I don't know how to say this to you, but someone told me that the most number of Bibles were sold last year as an example. Right. So the question I'm asking is, so has our religious quotient improved? I don't know. I can't answer that because I still read the media, and I'm always frustrated with things happening in the world around me. So the question is, here's a meme that both of us recognize and related to, and you and I are so confident in it, we know that listeners are going to say, I know that one. So the question is, if you were to conscientiously guide a CEO or an exec who's building out something, and in this case, the exact is clear. And you're saying that's, that's it, that's the guy that knows this. But what if you meet the other exec who actually says, nods along and says yes, you're right, cut the training budget. Because I've seen that in selling when the market is down, they will do. First thing to say is that to the sales people is that there are six of you. We only need three. Now when the market starts coming up, they find themselves that they have demolished the knowledge, they demolished the, you know, the engagement that they had with those guys. And now when the business grows and comes back out, you can't do it with three. You need to go back and find three. So you're always in the constant. What would your guidance be to, let's say that you meet a manager that is actually in, aligned with the als, stop the training. What would you say to that?
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think there's a couple things. First of all, I have a philosophy that you never cut your way to growth. You take that moment of opportunity to invest in people, invest in new technologies, invest in new products, rework your business model, but you never cut your way to growth. So that's my, that's my first premise that I would respond to that person by. The second one is, and I agree with you completely that, you know, the first thing that gets cut in an organization is sales and marketing. And the next thing that gets cut is training.
But I would submit to you that training doesn't have to be cut because there are cost effective ways to do this.
You know, by our conversation before this, I have a background in succession planning and leadership development.
And one of the things that I learned back then is the 70, 2010 rule.
When you're developing people, 70% of that comes on the job. It's through the manager. It's through the development that happens in real time that helps that individual learn a skill or learn a leadership behavior.
20% of that development plan should come through other people outside of the manager. So, you know, take a stretch assignment or put them on a committee and get them to work in another area of the business. That's the 20% percent.
Only 10% comes through formal training. And so when you think about budgets and dollars and you're trying to put an ROI to this, it's really about measuring time and how your people are spending their time. And I would then go back to the cartoon and say, I think if you're investing in your people and spending time with your people, then the results will Follow.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: You know, it's really cool. I like that because an ex boss of mine once said, why let a crisis go to waste?
And when there was a crisis, he would actually change his tact. He would say to the sales guys, guys, come on in. We're going to do training. And the guys are like, train for what? He says, we actually going to have an honest conversation when no one is buying. How do you sell when there is no budget? What do we need to change our language about? And I can tell you one thing, it blew my mind as to how it changes perspective when the steady state or the status quo is challenged. You need to sell differently. What are you going to say? And that's when you suddenly realize the conversation changes to relationship building, not selling. The conversation changes to here is what I can do for you when the time is right, but just think of me. The conversation also changes to what are you thinking of doing with your customer? Can I help you build that thought process out? So therefore you're contributing to an RFP or an RFI early in the game.
When I went through that experience with him, that's when I got a huge respect, huge respect for the process. Shell, I want to quickly get some guidance from you for an employee that's listening right now, who wants to stay valuable over the next five years, let's say, right?
What do they need to focus on besides just learning the new shiny object, the new AI, the new tool? What is the one fundamental that you think never changes, that someone needs to think about?
[00:10:34] Speaker B: I give you a couple quick things. I think the pandemic has changed the way that employees engage in the workforce, particularly those early career professionals.
A lot of their jobs have changed, so they need to create intentional opportunities to connect with leaders.
A lot of workplaces have become remote and so you don't get the water cooler conversation. You don't get the oh, by the way conversation when somebody pops in your door and asks you a question about your opinion. So I think new employees that want to be valuable need to be intentional about their career path. Whether it's learning a new skill, shadowing a department leader, participating in a mentorship program, or requesting formal training, they just need to be intentional.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: Oh, I love this. I love this. I like the intentionality aspect. I've always said, I'll set you free. We're going to move on to segment two where we're going to talk about reskilling, succession and building capability. We're going to really look at how this matter and let's talk about Culture where learning becomes part of the work itself. We'll be right back.
We'll be right back with real stories, fresh insights and action steps to help you rise up at work without losing yourself. You're watching Rise up at work on Now Media Television.
And we're back. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra and you're watching Rise up at Work on NOW Media Television. Let's keep reclaiming your career and learning how to truly rise up at work.
Welcome back to Rise up at Work. So we had a great conversation and I want to stay with something Dr. Cheryl Richards just said because I think there is a much bigger idea hiding inside that conversation.
We started by talking about the future work. AI technology, changing jobs, changing expectations that surround us in a post Covid world. But Sheryl made a very simple observation that I want to just re emphasize.
Maybe when we talk about the future work, what we're really talking about is change management. And when she said those two words, change management, that stopped me because if the future of work were only about technology, then this would actually be much easier to discuss. You would tell someone, learn the tool, take the course, get the certification, understand the new software. Voila, you're done, right? It's done. No, it's not. Here's the fun part. The reality is that technology changes much faster than human beings do. And that means the real question isn't simply can I learn the next technology? Right? The real question is how good am I at changing when what made me successful yesterday is no longer enough tomorrow?
Trust me, that is a very different question. Because most professionals don't resist change because they're incapable. They don't.
Sometimes we resist change because the old way worked and it worked very well. We build our confidence around it. We built our reputation around it.
Maybe we were promoted because of it as well. Let's be honest about it. Of course now the environment changes and somebody suddenly says, you need to operate differently. Now this just isn't a skills problem anymore. Sometimes that's an identity problem because it's hitting you, it's hitting your self worth.
And Shell mentioned four capabilities that I think deserve much more attention. Let's just quickly enumerate adaptability, resilience, learning, agility, and judgment of those four. I really want to stay with judgment for some time. Bear with me, because I think judgment may actually become more valuable in an AI driven workplace, not less. And I'm saying that with tremendous confidence because I'm a big observer of what AI is doing to us. And I'm from sales AI I know can give you information. You know, it. It can summarize, it can analyze, it can organize, it can generate ideas. And, oh, my, it can generate tons of ideas.
In fact, you can get 20 options before you finish your coffee. But somebody still has to decide what really matters here, what's relevant here, what doesn't fit this situation, what should I ignore that's important, and what should I challenge in return? That's important, too. Why is this output or this work I'm doing appropriate for this customer, this employee, this organization in this moment? That is judgment. And judgment comes from more than information. It comes from experience, mistakes, observations made, reflections considered, and the context of everything matters. It does quite a lot.
So as I think about what we discussed with Sheryl, here's the first question I want you to think about, my listener. What part of your professional value comes from knowledge, and what part comes from judgment?
Think about that balance. And the reason I forced you to think about is because knowledge is becoming easier to access. Correct judgment, however, is something that has to be developed. I come from a sales background, so people ask me all the time, deepak, is AI going to replace sales people? My answer is usually slightly clearer. It depends on what you believe the salesperson's job actually is.
If your value as a seller is simply sending somebody information they could find themselves, then, yes, I would be. You should be concerned. But Great selling was never just information transfer. It was about understanding the customer. It was about reading the room. It was about recognizing what somebody is not saying. It was about understanding risk, knowing when to push, knowing when to stop talking. Yep, two is to one. Helping somebody make sense of a decision is also important.
And all of this, if you think about it, is judgment. And the same principle applies in almost every profession.
So I want you to just slow down and ask yourself a very simple question.
What do people come to me for? That requires more than simply knowing the answer. Pay attention to that.
Trust me. Because that may be where your future value is sitting. And if you can figure that out, you, my friend, are in a better position. Another word Cheryl used that stayed with me was intentionality. She was talking about younger professionals and how the workplace has changed. We don't always get the spontaneous conversation we once did, the hallway conversation, the water cooler talk. The senior manager walks past and says, come sit in on this meeting. You were not invited, but he's inviting you now because he made a judgment. At the moment, the leader who asks your opinion because you happen to be standing there, not because you were there. By preordinate in remote and hybrid places. Some of those moments don't happen automatically anymore. So development has to become intentional. And I see this with early and mid career professionals constantly. You get the job, you're grateful, you're trying to perform, you're trying to survive. I understand that. I trust me, I really do. But somewhere along the way, survival has to become development.
Right?
You have to start asking some slightly different questions. And these are? I would say it's more self reflective. What am I becoming good at?
Who knows? I am good at it. Important.
What experience am I missing? Knowing what you're missing is also very important. Who is five years ahead of me that I can learn from?
What should I be preparing before somebody tells me I need it? They tell you in advance that, my friend, is career, international career intentionality. And notice I didn't say what promotion should I chase? Because development and promotion are not the same thing. We have unfortunately put them into the same, but it's not, it's not even the same. Sides of the coin, please don't make that mistake.
Maybe your version of success is becoming a manager, maybe it isn't. Maybe you want to be a great individual contributor. Maybe it's becoming exceptional at your craft, the work that you do, how you do it. Maybe it's about autonomy. You don't want a boss telling you what to do, what not to do. Maybe it's mentoring. You're in a position of strength where you're actually helping people grow. Maybe it's meaningful work. Maybe it's making good money while still having a life outside your job. Why not? Well, being balanced, you have to define that for yourself. Otherwise you can spend 20 years climbing a ladder only to realize it was leaning against the wrong wall or went to the wrong floor. Now, another part of my conversation with Cheryl really resonated with me. She brought up that familiar question, what if we invest in developing our people and they leave?
Hold on. I've been seeing this meme for the last 30 years, ladies and gentlemen. What if we don't develop them and they stay? Is then the response to that? We have heard this for decades and decades. And yet when organizations get nervous, development is still often one of the first things examined for cuts. I watched this happen. Sales decline, budgets tighten, people panic, and suddenly we stop investing in the capabilities we're going to need when the market comes back.
Years ago, I worked for a leader who taught me the opposite. His attitude was essentially, why let a good crisis go to waste, as he called it. And for him Any crisis is good. Think about the mindset that that requires when customers are not buying. He brought the sales team together, and he said, let's learn how to sell differently. If nobody has budget, what conversation should we be having?
For me, that changed everything in how I used to think about the world. Instead of forcing transactions, we learned to build relationships. We learned to understand what customers were preparing for. We learned how to become useful before there was a sale. And that experience changed the way I looked at development.
Because honestly, sometimes difficulty isn't the interruption to development.
Difficulty is the development.
Let's talk about Cheryl's idea, the 70, 2010 idea. I love her point, right? Don't become obsessed with the percentages. That's not the point. It's just directional. The bigger idea that she was talking about is what matters most. Development doesn't happen in a classroom. It happens while you're doing the work. Think about it. Someone gives you a stretch assignment, you do the stretch assignment. Yes.
You change your responsibilities. Different responsibilities. Yes. Exposure to different teams. You're not doing the same stuff you're doing with different people. Mentors change feedback. You take projects where you are slightly uncomfortable because you haven't done it before. That's when the fun starts. Look, I know formal training matters, but at some point, knowledge has to become behavior. You don't. You. You don't learn leadership only by reading about leadership. Think about it. How can you do that? Eventually, you have to lead to understand.
Another point I want to make is you don't learn difficult conversations by watching somebody else have them. That's why I'm not a big fan of scripts. Eventually, you have to sit across from another human being and have one.
So before you say, my company is developing me, ask a simple question.
What experience could I deliberately create inside the job I already have?
Could you, my dear friend, listening, volunteer for a project?
How about shadowing somebody? How about actually asking someone? Can I attend a meeting?
Request feedback. Request feedback on your work, on your behavior. Teach something. Why not stand up in a ballroom and talk to people? Tell them what you've learned about the world and how what you've learned can help them in the way they perceive or operate in the world.
Your workplace can become more than the place where you perform. Think about it. It can become the place where you practice.
And it's very important for you to understand that now.
I think that's one of the most important things I took away from the first part of my conversation with Cheryl. The future work isn't simply something that's happening to us. We participate in how ready we become for it. So before we move into the next part of our conversation, I want you to ask yourself three simple questions.
Question number one.
If my industry changed dramatically tomorrow, tomorrow, what part of my value would still matter?
I hope you're getting the gist of this. If your industry, my friend, changed dramatically tomorrow, some technology, something happened. What part of your value would still matter?
What capability am I postponing because my job hasn't forced me to develop it yet? Just because my job doesn't request it doesn't mean I shouldn't develop it. Think about it. There are people whose job allows them to not use AI at all, but they still need to deliver on AI from a learning point of view.
And look, what experience can you create in the next 90 days that will stretch you beyond the professional that you are today? Is a powerful question to ask. And I want to repeat this question because it's very, very, very important.
What experience can you create in the next 90 days that will stretch you beyond the professional you are today?
If you can put together an answer in response to that, my friend, you are on the right track.
Right. Look, maybe preparing for the future isn't really about predicting what technology does next. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's about becoming the kind of person who can respond intelligently when things change because the future work isn't sitting somewhere five years away. No, no, no, no, no. It's already arriving through the choices you're going to make this week. In fact, the choice to listen right now is something that's also going to be very important for you. And when we come back for the next segment, Sheryl and I are going to go into this a bit deeper. We're going to talk about succession planning. We're going to talk about capability building. We're going to talk about development and how organizations prepare people before the need becomes urgent. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra, and this is Rise up at Work. We'll be right back.
We'll be right back with real stories, fresh insights and action steps to help you rise up at work without losing yourself. You're watching Rise up at work on Now Media Television. And we're back. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra, and you're watching Rise Up At Work on NOW Media Television. Let's keep reclaiming your career and learning how to truly rise up at work.
Hey, everyone. To stay connected to this show and every NOW Media TV favorite, live or on demand, anytime you like, just Download the free Now Media TV app on Roku or iOS and unlock non stop bilingual programming in English and Spanish. If you're on the move. Hey, we got you covered. Catch the podcast version at www.nowmedia.tv. from Workplace Growth and leadership to business, culture, wellness and beyond, NOW Media TV is streaming around the clock. Ready whenever you are. We are back. And I have had so much fun listening to Cheryl talking about things that have, I would say, kept me awake at nights. Right. We spoke about future readiness and how it starts with people and it's not about predictions. Right. And she made a point about talking about the fact that let's put technology the side, which I think is a very bold statement to make because right now AI is consuming every conversation.
I want to take this to the next level, Cheryl. How should leaders decide which capabilities to build internally, wish to hire for and which work to redesign? And I asked this question because I'm, I, I do a lot of work with early career individuals, right. Early mid career, and none of them ever think of being successes to anyone else because they're just in the survival mode that I got a first job, I am grateful. And it takes them a lot of inertia that settles in because no one's thinking about being someone to be considered for someone else's shoes and stuff like that. But give me your perspective on what is this? What, how do leaders decide the capabilities and when should you keep it in house? When should you take it outside?
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, we talked earlier about my background in succession planning, which is really about talent development and kind of creating a pipeline of talent for the future. And so when I talk to leaders about deciding what capabilities do you build in house, which do you outsource? It always starts with the vision of the company. Right. Where are you going and what are you trying to build for? And not what do you have today, but what are you really trying to build for in the future? Because the competencies of the CEO, myself today, leading my organization 10 years from now will be very different. And so having that vision for what you need, you know, in the competencies going forward, once you get really clear about where you're going, then I think you, you gotta go do the hard work of identifying what are the competencies and what's the team that's gonna get you there. Some of that team may exist internally and some of that team you might have to externally hire or outsource at least for a moment in time to get you through that bridge that would naturally then say you've got to assess your talent in house. You know, where are they in the competency spectrum? Are they ready now or they need a few years to be developed to get there?
What are their aspirations? You may have a fantastic individual in your organization that you want to promote and maybe they don't have aspirations of being promoted. So, you know, having that talent readiness and identification process I think is really important.
And then, you know, once you have that assessment, you can build the development plans and you can put timelines to it and you can assess and review those. But it always starts with the vision of where you want to go as an organization.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: If I were to push you on that a little bit and ask you what's the biggest frustration you have on things that people leave till the last moment when it comes to succession planning, what would you say are the first two steps, Deepak, that if everyone did, would make life so smoother when the transition actually happens, what will those two moves sound like, feel like?
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the biggest mistake I see is people appointing someone and not having a bench strength. Right? Because you never know what can happen. You and I can have a conversation a year previous and say, Deepak, you want to take this role and then who knows, something happens and you end up back in India. Right? Like there's just life happens and things change. And so I think that's the number one mistake that I see. Organizations is getting too myopic in their view about the talent that can fill the role. I always take them back to what, what are you looking for? What are the competencies? Start there. Build your bench of talent. You can use those internally to assess people. And the worst thing that happens is they don't rise to that next level position. And you've got a well developed candidate in house and if you go external, then at least you know what you're looking for and that shortens the time to productivity.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: I must be honest with you, I was delighted when you said rise up and there's, I'm okay, rise up. I'm happy. So here's a question for you. When we talk about, you know, training, sometimes you have a succession planning discussion where the person might be doing, going to do something different.
As a part of succession planning, we hear of all these things like, oh, they have names in an envelope and the envelope gets open when something happens and blah, blah, blah. Let's park that to one side though.
If we were looking at reskilling and repositioning someone and you know, keeping their skill sets going, how exactly does one go about assessing what would be the delta between what, let's say that you're looking for a CEO successor and the person is not ready yet, but you know, can be a great fit. How does, what would you guide or consult on to close a delta to prepare this person to either be put onto the list of successor with known gaps, or let's close some of the gaps and then put him on the list. But either way, is he still in the running? How would you give us some guidance on that?
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a really good point because it's kind of the next step in succession planning, which is what I talked about, the development plan. Right. Having an individual development plan for that person. So you might have identified in your talent identification process, let's say five people who have the potential and have proven performance records to rise up. I'll use that again to the next level in the organization.
But each of those five people has to have a different development plan because their skill gaps are different.
So I always recommend with starting with a 360 assessment so that you get feedback from peers, from vendors, from direct reports, from managers to put together a comprehensive development development plan and measure those against the competencies that you're trying to develop towards. And so everyone's plan will be different and it'll be individualized.
And then, you know, I go back to my 70, 2010 example and that
[00:30:48] Speaker A: is exactly what I was thinking of. I was going to ask you that. Connect it back for me, ma'. Am. Please do.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: Yeah, connect it right back. I mean, you know, where are you going to spend your 70% in stretch assignments or in working with different areas of an organization or being put on special projects or a committee or whatever that may be. And then what is the, you know, 10% that you need to outsource and go have them train? Maybe there's a real skill. If you need somebody to know Claude code, you're probably going to outsource that and send them to a training. But if you're asking them to learn more of the eq, the soft skills, to be a leader, you probably want to develop those in house or through some coaching and mentoring. You know, even if it's bringing in an outside firm to do executive coaching to develop the individual, it's a little bit more personal.
[00:31:42] Speaker A: Then I have a question for you because, you know, when, when budgets are limited and we live in an AI infused world where people tell me, you know what, just use the AI to build your career out deeper. AI can be a gate sparing partner and I sit there like with this look on my face. I know I use AI quite a lot, but AI as a sparring partner to build a career, I don't know. But I do want to talk about AI for one second because I do believe there is a role that AI can play, particularly when you are. Let's put succession planning aside for one second and talk about development here. What's your take on the role of AI when used in the right way for development processes for people that want to, let's say, develop skills but don't have access to the manager or a coach? How do you see AI and the work that's happening in that AI domain that has a direct impact on your guidance and recommendations to companies?
[00:32:35] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think, you know, a lot of the work you're doing right now, you'll, this will be music to your ears because you're working with those early career and mid career professionals. And let's be honest, that generation is a technology born generation. So they are not afraid to use the technology tools to upskill.
We have individuals in our organization and in our employers that we serve who are self teaching themselves through YouTube videos or through AI or watching lessons online to learn new things. So I think that early career and that mid career professional is less reticent to adopt technology to learn at their own pace.
You know, my assistant is on the latter part of her career, but she's still very hungry and she has an appetite to learn new technologies.
You know, building that muscle of curiosity and that learning agility that we talked about in the first segment. You know, the ability to learn something new and then to be successful at it. That's, that's really what you're getting at.
[00:33:46] Speaker A: Let me push you on this one. And I know we're going to run out of time, but Sheryl, as we kind of wrap up this segment, tell me the one biggest thing that bothers you about AI and its impact on our cognition, our ability to learn and how we are over relying on it. Do you see a problem that you want to call out and do you have a solution for it?
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the problem is, I think expecting the artificial intelligence to be perfect and to be exact. And so the pitfall that I often see people fall into is not challenging it and not reframing its prompts. So I always, I use it as an enabler for my work if I'm writing correspondence or developing a presentation or doing something like that. But I always ask it, what have I not thought about where are the blind spots that I'm not thinking about. Go in and refrain, you know, re answer this in a way that I wouldn't have thought to ask you to do that. And I've always found that challenging. It brings back a better result.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: Shell, before I run off, how do people communicate with you? Where can they find out more about the work you do?
[00:34:56] Speaker B: Yes, happy to share all of the great work of catapult. We're an HR advisory services organization now serving employers in over 40 states. And you can find us. Our website is scrolling right there. It's let's catapult.org and you can see there that we can be a partner virtually in any way, whether it's compliance or recruiting, talent development, leadership and training, fractional HR compensation.
We probably have a solution for you.
[00:35:28] Speaker A: Thank you, ma'.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: Am.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: That was great. I'm going to bid adieu at this stage. I really enjoyed this conversation. Cheryl, thanks for being with us.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: We'll be right back with real stories, fresh insights and action steps to help you rise up at work without losing yourself. You're watching Rise up at work on Now Media Television. And we're back. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra, and you're watching Rise up at Work on NOW Media Television. Let's keep reclaiming your career and learning how to truly rise up at work.
Welcome back to Rise up at Work. I want to close today's episode by reflecting on one idea from my second conversation with Dr. Shel Richards that I think we can take from the organizational level and make deeply personal. Let's do that.
We talked quite a bit about succession planning. And when most people hear those words, they imagine a boardroom, a CEO is retiring. HR has the list. Maybe there's even one of those legendary envelopes somewhere with someone's name inside it. Right? That's succession planning. From the organization's point of view, that POV is valuable. I get it.
But while Cheryl was talking, another kept coming into my mind. Another question kept coming into my mind, which was, what if you did succession planning for yourself?
Not who replaces me, but who am I becoming next?
Think about it. Think about what good organization is supposed to do. They look forward.
They ask some very simple questions. Where are we going?
What capabilities will we need?
What roles will matter?
Who is ready now?
Who could become ready in the future or near future?
Where are the gaps?
These are all great questions. So why don't we ask them about ourselves? I want you to do some introspection with me. Now, imagine sitting down once a Year and asking a series of questions to yourself.
Start with where is my profession heading? It's not about you, it's about your profession. Where is that heading?
What will somebody doing my job exceptionally well three years from now need to know? Careful, forward looking. Think about it. What will they need to be able to do? Which of those capabilities do I already have?
Which ones am I missing? Powerful. And what am I going to do about the gap? That gap closure is important and that is going to help your personal succession planning as I call it. And most people start doing it too far too late. We wait until the promotion appears before preparing for the promotion. We wait. We typically wait until the industry changes before learning. Think about it. We wait until the job becomes unstable before we start networking. Isn't that bad? Isn't that curiously wrong? We wait until we are unhappy before we are asking whether we even want the career we are building. Wow.
Preparation works much better. Before necessity arrives. I want you to think about that. Let me. Let me give you a different parallel. For one second, think of this conversation like physical fitness. You don't discover tonight that you have to run 10 miles tomorrow and suddenly decide to become fit. Aha.
Capacity is built before it is required. Your career works the same way. Believe it or not, it does. Cheryl talked about identifying the competencies required for a future role and then assessing the individual against those competencies. Simple. And I love the simplicity of that. Because career development is usually far too vague.
Become more strategic. Improve your leadership. Communicate better. Learn AI. Isn't it amazing? And I'm sure you're smiling because you've heard all of these said to you, right? And wonderful if it was.
But what exactly do I do? Monday morning is something that should be giving you sleepless night.
Development becomes useful when it becomes specific. And specific is not that someone wrote it down. Specific is that it's actually articulated very clearly, very cleanly on whatever was written down.
Now let me talk about this a bit. Look, maybe you're technically excellent, but you struggle to explain complex ideas simply. Now that's something you could resolve. Maybe clients love you, but nobody outside your immediate team knows what you contribute. Dangerous. Maybe you're an outstanding individual contributor, but you've never learned how to develop another person. Powerful. Maybe you're strategic, but you're inconsistent in execution. And let me be even more nasty, maybe you're highly ambitious but find it uncomfortable asking for help.
If any of those sentences resonate with you, and I assure you they did because I've heard it from thousands of voices.
However Those are all different development problems. But believe it or not, they require different development plans. But it's just still concrete, simple. And there's another thing Sheryl emphasized. Development has to be individualized. And that is the mind opening that I want to give to you. Open and see what's happening over here.
Cheryl spoke about getting feedback from people around you. Your peers, your managers, your direct reports, others who experience you differently.
You may not have access to a former 360 degree assessment. And I get that and I respect that. That's okay. Just accept it. But you can still borrow the principle that we're talking about here.
All I am asking you to do is speak to several people, a couple of people in your inner circle, in your circle of influence and where you work.
Ask them, what do you trust me with? Where am I the strongest? What do you hesitate to give to me? That's a very powerful question. What is one behavior that may be holding me back? And here's one question I really like and I please beg of you, do it. If you are considering me for a role one level above mine, what would make you nervous?
That's a powerful question, right? And yes, the answer may sting you a little bit. It will hurt, but useful feedback sometimes does that. It is intended not to be a balm. It's intended to be something that heals you, but may not taste or does not feel right.
Right?
One of the biggest traps in professional life is building our career entirely from our own self perception. We know our intentions and other people experience our behavior, though those are not the same thing.
You may believe you're decisive. Your team may experience you as impatient. Think about it.
You may think you are supportive. But someone else may experience you as avoiding difficult conversations. Wow. Suddenly, you see, this is very challenging. Look, let me give another example. People tell me I'm humble. You may think you're humble. Your leadership may simply think you're invisible. Think about it.
That's why external perspective matters. Once you found the gap, though, don't immediately assume the solution is another course.
Let's go back to that 70, 2010 idea. Ask yourself, can I develop this through experience?
Can I take on a stretch assignment? Can I work with a different team? Can somebody mentor me? Yeah, what's wrong with that, right? Can I watch somebody who already does this very well. Find your definition. Well, though, can I practice the behavior instead of simply studying it? Important.
Some capabilities have to be lived. You need to breathe it. You don't become courageous by watching a webinar about courage. You become More courageous by doing something that requires courage.
Eventually competence has to become behavior.
Now let's move to the topic of the year. The topic of the last four years. Hopefully the topic of this next decade. And that is AI Artificial intelligence.
Cheryl and I intentionally didn't make this entire episode an AI conversation. But clearly you and I and many of us clearly know that it belongs here. I use AI extensively, a lot. It can be an extraordinary development tool. It can help you to learn. I do tons of research with it. I rehearse with it. Yes. Role play. I practice interviews also with it. I can critique my own thinking. I tell it, be a devil's advocate. Tell me what I did got wrong. Role playing a difficult customer is something that can be very meaningful. Explore a profession. You know a little about using AI. Why not? It'll show you alternatives you hadn't considered.
For somebody who doesn't have access to an expensive coach, mentor, or a formal training program, that's incredibly powerful. Mark my words. But at the same time, Cheryl raised an important warning.
Don't assume the answer is correct simply because AI gave you an answer.
Challenge the answer. Challenge it. The AI she talked about asking, what haven't I thought about?
Where are my blind spots?
How else could this be interpreted? Think about it. That is a much healthy relationship with AI. Yes. I'm asking you to have a relationship with AI. Use it to expand your thinking. Don't use it to eliminate your thinking. Right. People tell me sometimes, Deepak, use AI as your sparring partner. I understand that, but I think.
But think about what a sparing partner does. The sparring partner doesn't fight the fight for you. The sparring partner helps you become better at fighting.
If AI writes every difficult message and it forms every argument on your behalf, if it generates every presentation for you, and if it actually makes every recommendation as well for you, then at some point we have to ask, which mental muscles are we still exercising ourselves?
The objective shouldn't be to become dependent upon the tool.
It. The objective should be to become more capable because we are using the tool intelligently.
And I want to talk about this intelligently. For me, AI actually stands for augmented intelligence.
Augmented intelligence is what to do with AI. To change your own intelligence, to augment your own intelligence. That is the mental muscle that I think you need to start of it. Like in a gym setting, right? Building that muscle.
What I want you to do is that, you know, let's stop because you can see I get passionate about this. But let's come back to Cheryl's earlier word about judgment.
Yes, technology can assist.
Technology is powerful. Calculators, smartphones, Internet. I want you to slow down and think about what's happening right now, right today. AI is very different though. AI is coming in and it is making us rethink of how we actually apply intelligence. And that's a big, big, big fun, fun problem to have, isn't there? Now what I want to do is we kind of get that. And here's what I want you to connect all of this in what we've been discussing till now, right from this entire episode. It comes down to ultimately, what is succession planning? What and how do we define learning? What is the feedback that we want to see out of this? Right? What was this conversation on 702010 and we spoke about AI? Intentionality is also very important.
They all point towards one bigger idea.
You have to become an active participant in your own development.
You cannot. The day when a company could actually build a career for you is gone. You have to build your own career. A company's job is simply to facilitate and point you the way, but you own it. And I think this is something that people have not woken up to yet. And I want you to understand that and work it through for a very long time. Many professionals operate with an unwritten contract. I'll work hard, my manager will notice. Simple formula, right? I'll work hard, my manager will notice. The organization will develop me. Eventually someone will promote me.
That contract was never guaranteed. That employment contract doesn't even exist anymore. Today it's even less reliable than what it was before. Managers are busy, right? Organizations are constantly restructuring. Roles are disappearing. Left, right, center. In fact, when they don't disappear, they're being morphed, becoming something else totally.
We have, after Covid, become used to working remotely. People are working remotely in far more percentages and numbers that we actually can attribute it to.
Technology evolves and it's evolving at such a pace that everyone tells me what's next in AI is actually tiring me deeper. It's important to understand, right? When you are building something on something that changes so much, your development cannot depend entirely on that.
And you have to become intentional. Here's a simple exercise I want you to leave you with. Imagine yourself three years from today. Ask yourself, what do I want people to trust me to do three years from now that they would not trust me to do today?
Number two, I want you to ask a very simple question. What capability would make that possible?
Right? And then the last question that I want to leave you with is what experience would prove that I have that capability?
Now you're no longer talking vaguely about career growth. You're building evidence.
Want to lead? Follow this advice. Lead something before somebody gives you the title. Trust me. Start early. Mentor someone, guide someone, run a project. All the best.
